Compressor question
Question:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Thoughts? > With good playing technique, who needs a compressor. > This is yet another popular thing to say around here as a kneejerk > reflex. This comment placed in this thread especially though, is just > plain wrong. > The original poster is asking about a compressor’s use in-line for use > with an in-ear monitor rig. > If you run an in-ear rig that accepts any input that might be prone to > feedback or transients such as an unplugged cord, or vocal mikes, it’s > "the sane person who cares about protecting his hearing" that needs a > compressor.
Fine with me, if you want to sample the real world through ear monitors. Every orchestral playing musician, should not be without them. Jazz, rock, folk, funk, swing, C&W, R&B, etc… too. Just make sure the monitor mixer dude, is from the real world. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
Response:
I use in ears.. i hate them… they are not real world and we have a great monitor mixer. Rich Koerner knows what he is talking about… he has been doing pro audio and gigging while you were in diapers….
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Thoughts? > > With good playing technique, who needs a compressor. > This is yet another popular thing to say around here as a kneejerk > reflex. This comment placed in this thread especially though, is just > plain wrong. > The original poster is asking about a compressor’s use in-line for use > with an in-ear monitor rig. > If you run an in-ear rig that accepts any input that might be prone to > feedback or transients such as an unplugged cord, or vocal mikes, it’s > "the sane person who cares about protecting his hearing" that needs a > compressor. > Fine with me, if you want to sample the real world through ear monitors. > Every orchestral playing musician, should not be without them. > Jazz, rock, folk, funk, swing, C&W, R&B, etc… too. > Just make sure the monitor mixer dude, is from the real world. > Regards, > Rich Koerner, > Time Electronics. > http://www.timeelect.com > Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, > Music & Studio Production, > Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
Response:
Exclamation overload. <thinking> Things that radiate more heat than light…. But there was some light in there at least. — /" ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H / | http://www.toddh.net/ X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/ / http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."
Response:
> I use in ears.. > Geez, Big Mouth, I’m surprised that someone as worldly and informed as you > are will allow himself to be manipulated by the New World Order so easily. > You do realize that in-ear monitors are actually one of the crudest, > least-advanced technologies used by the Illuminati to inject messages > directly into your brain, don’t you?
Time to imianentize the Eschaton, baby. Glenn D.
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > With good playing technique, who needs a compressor. > > Well, Rich, if the purpose of a compressor were to correct playing > > technique, then I guess no one would. Of course, that’s not the purpose > of > > a compressor. > OK, for what reason is a compressor required for a musical instrument in > the first place. > For the same reason recording ultimately to a CD is, and having someone > master your recording…b/c everyone does it.
And,… not to mention, that *mastering*, by the ORIGINAL definition of what it IS to accomplish, is miles apart from what is what is actually is done for the CD of today. The whole concept is not even close, yet the SAME term is applied. > Hell, why do you need a FOH engineer (per your signature)? Do you NEED one? > Nope.
That answer is obvious. But, is another topic to get into in detail in another thread. > I would bet 99% of all vocal tracks recorded today have *some* compression > on them. Higher notes = more loudness most of the time. Vocals are one > instrument that most certainly benefit from compression unless you have > un-earthly control of your voice/mic technique.
LOL, when was the last time the singer in your band went for vocal lessons. Or, is there a problem with learning proper singing and mic technique. Most of the great singers of the past had their shit together. Compressors are for fixing the loose cannons, with no talent for doing the proper things. > At the same time MOST bass players don’t have the touch/talent to record > without compression, myself included.
And, it’s because we have the compressor available, we don’t have to WORK at being the human compressor. I work at it all the time. In my slap style, I can make all the notes the SAME level. Or, select at will, what notes I want to pop out there as accents. With compressors, the more you NEED, the more you LOOSE in dynamics of touch. OUT OF *CONTROL* Bass Hacks, NEED compressors!!!!! It separates the men, from the boys!!!!!! > Compressors sound pleasing to most people’s ears, therefore they are used.
I sound VERY pleasing, WITHOUT them!!!!!!! So, for the CRAP that an out of CONTROL slap player inflicts on the listener’s ears, because of a lack of effort in developing proper technique, the compressor is REQUIRED!!!!!!! Using a compressor is just a short cut for hard work. What happens when the compressor CRAPS out, and the player has to stand playing bare ass naked, for all the world to HEAR how REALLY *BAD* he/she really IS!!!!!! LOL, like that singer in the band that won the MTV award, and than sang live the song they won it for. The freaking singer couldn’t sing on pitch, and sounded like shit!!!!! We live in a world of NO Talents, because of the technology before us. Join the REAL world, and be a better bass player for it. Just get CONTROL of yourself, and control the instrument!!!!!! > Especially for in ear monitoring, they may actually help prevent permanent > injury.
Safety is required, for safety reasons!!!!! > For recording, a more compressed signal (used sparingly, not in excess) can > serve to round off some of the peaks, and allow you to create greater volume > for the overall recording.
Why, the home system has no volume control!!!! How did we ever get along without them. Record a session with killer players, and none is required. But a band of OUT OF CONTROL players, I’ll compress the shit out of them, and end up with that is OK, compared to the GREAT recording it could have been, had they really been great players in the first place. There just is no substitute for playing talent, properly performed on the instrument. Technology fixes are technology fixes. Pro Tools is for the talent less. The real players, the real singers, don’t NEED it!!!!!! BE, a better player, because you don’t use them. THAT’S, the point!!!!!! <thinking> I you think it can’t be done, stop in, and I’ll show you how it’s done. Just bring your bass. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
Response:
Do you intend not to use the > compressor in the V-Amp then? Or do you intend to use both the V-Amp and > the dbx for compression on the bass channel? If so, then I can’t see any > use in that.
Wow….I’m sorry I wasn’t very clear exactly what I was asking…I never expected some responders to just totally rant about compressors. Thanks to Todd and Brian for trying to answer my original, albeit poorly worded question. I guess I felt like there might be a more efficient way of using the dbx since it has two channels….versus tying up both for the IEM’s. It seemed like I was wasting both channels for the IEM’s. My initial question was meant to evoke reponses whether there would be any benefit of combining L and R from the IEM’s into one dbx channel…freeing up the other channel for the bass. 1) This would allow me to use a "potentially" better compressor, the dbx, for the bass as well as for the IEM’s. 2) If used with the V-amp compressor, I could compress the compressed signal from the bass. Now that I know there is no benefit to try to use the dbx for BOTH IEM’s and bass, I will just keep the dbx in line with the IEM’s. What I have gathered from the posts: Question 2 seems like it would indeed be overkill. The V-amp’s compressor should be able to handle the job…and compressing a "compressed" signal is redundant…from what I have heard. Question 1 seems silly as well, since I would need to combine the L & R IEM signals to use only one channel of the dbx. This sounds like a bad idea as well. I will definetly be using the dbx 166 dual channel compressor as a first line of defense for my Shure psm400’s. L IEM output into channel 1, R IEM output into channel 2, using both dbx channels for the IEM’s only. The IEM’s are really only for my benefit since the band uses stage monitors…however, this will mean that I can hear as much bass as I want without affecting the stage volume. I will be using a V-amp Pro DI to the house mix, and I may or may not feel the need to use the V-amp compressor…that’s an arguement for another thread. 
I have the dbx currently between the mixer and the IEM transmitter, so the mix is compressed (or knee-walled, best I can do) into the transmitter….and then finally the PSM400 has a limiter in the body pack. Thanks for trying to answer a poorly worded question, in the first place! Daniel
Response:
> Gents, > I didn’t realize that combining the signal outputs…into the > compressor could cause a problem. > I guess I’d be best to just leave the L signal (from the IEM) going > into one channel, and the R signal (from the IEM) going into the > other? > I will have to rely on the V-amp’s compressor….IF I feel I need one > then. > > Thanks, > Daniel
In the studio, setting up a NEW YORK drum mix takes a group of compressors, then more compressors sub grouped down to the mix buss. In doing so, depending on the drum kit, and how crazy you want to get, the number of compressors can grow from realistic to insane. Yeah, it can be worth the time to patch in and set up the compressors if the music really supports it because of the musical composition, the drummer is a great player, and it is a desired Sonic Signature for the record. But, once done, there is no drum kit, or a drummer who can make a drum kit sound like that in the natural world we live in. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
Response:
> I use in ears.. i hate them… they are not real world and we have a great > monitor mixer. Rich Koerner knows what he is talking about… he has been > doing pro audio and gigging while you were in diapers….
Hey, I just wanted to let you know, I appreciate your kind words. I’m used to it. I’ve spent a whole life in music. Very few musicians, be objective, can think outside the box. Most are ego’s and control freaks. Those with the knowledge and talent, just say Fu_k it, do their thing, play their ass off, and don’t look back. Others get too hung up on Bull Shit, BEFORE they even get their ducks in a row, to get out there to play on the BIG stage!!!!! Like, they keep tying their shoe laces together, and expect to go somewhere. If musicians would learn to talk with their MUSIC, and not so much with their MOUTH, we’d have a lot more music, and a lot less Bull Shit for music. Thanks again, I appreciate it. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
Response:
> I use in ears..
Geez, Big Mouth, I’m surprised that someone as worldly and informed as you are will allow himself to be manipulated by the New World Order so easily. You do realize that in-ear monitors are actually one of the crudest, least-advanced technologies used by the Illuminati to inject messages directly into your brain, don’t you?
Response:
> Hi, > In your collective opinion(s) would using multiple compressors be > redundant?
Yes. I can understand that you’d want a compressor, set up as a limiter, in-line with your in-ear monitors, but it’s not as clear why you’d need the compression on the bass-only channel. Do you intend not to use the compressor in the V-Amp then? Or do you intend to use both the V-Amp and the dbx for compression on the bass channel? If so, then I can’t see any use in that.
Response:
> With good playing technique, who needs a compressor.
Well, Rich, if the purpose of a compressor were to correct playing technique, then I guess no one would. Of course, that’s not the purpose of a compressor.
Response:
> Very few musicians, be objective, can think outside the box. > Most are ego’s and control freaks.
I totally agree. For instance, some have unexplained kneejerk hangups against compressors and IEM’s in all situations. Best Regards, — /" ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H / | http://www.toddh.net/ X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/ / http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."
Response:
> > With good playing technique, who needs a compressor. > Well, Rich, if the purpose of a compressor were to correct playing > technique, then I guess no one would. Of course, that’s not the purpose of > a compressor.
OK, for what reason is a compressor required for a musical instrument in the first place. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
Response:
> > With good playing technique, who needs a compressor. > Well, Rich, if the purpose of a compressor were to correct playing > technique, then I guess no one would. Of course, that’s not the purpose of > a compressor. > OK, for what reason is a compressor required for a musical instrument in
the first place. For the same reason recording ultimately to a CD is, and having someone master your recording…b/c everyone does it. Hell, why do you need a FOH engineer (per your signature)? Do you NEED one? Nope. I would bet 99% of all vocal tracks recorded today have *some* compression on them. Higher notes = more loudness most of the time. Vocals are one instrument that most certainly benefit from compression unless you have un-earthly control of your voice/mic technique. At the same time MOST bass players don’t have the touch/talent to record without compression, myself included. Compressors sound pleasing to most people’s ears, therefore they are used. Especially for in ear monitoring, they may actually help prevent permanent injury. For recording, a more compressed signal (used sparingly, not in excess) can serve to round off some of the peaks, and allow you to create greater volume for the overall recording. What’s the big deal again? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Regards, > Rich Koerner, > Time Electronics. > http://www.timeelect.com > Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, > Music & Studio Production, > Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
Response:
Gents, I didn’t realize that combining the signal outputs…into the compressor could cause a problem. I guess I’d be best to just leave the L signal (from the IEM) going into one channel, and the R signal (from the IEM) going into the other? I will have to rely on the V-amp’s compressor….IF I feel I need one then. Thanks, Daniel
Response:
> Gents, > I didn’t realize that combining the signal outputs…into the > compressor could cause a problem. > I guess I’d be best to just leave the L signal (from the IEM) going > into one channel, and the R signal (from the IEM) going into the > other?
It’s not clear to me what you’re wanting to do really. Are you just wanting bass in your IEM’s? Is there any reason you can’t just put the compressor ahead of the IEM’s in the signal chain? Left compressor channel out to left input of the IEM, right commpressor channel out to the right input of the IEM. And then use the IEM amp (whatever it is) to either give you a stereo R/L feed or mix the two channels down to mono. This would allow you to put another mix into your IEM’s other than bass. If your IEM amp lacks "mix mode" functionality to blend the two inputs, you can get to mono bass-only feed simply by feeding the compressor with the Left output of the Vamp run through a Y cable to feed both inputs to the compressor with the same mono signal out of the Vamp. A Y cable that splits a single output to two inputs is okay. A Y cable that combines two outputs into a single input is bad. > I will have to rely on the V-amp’s compressor….IF I feel I need > one then.
Not if you put the DBX ahead of the IEM–you’ll have the benefit of both. Best Regards, — /" ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H / | http://www.toddh.net/ X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/ / http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->Fine with me, if you want to sample the real world through ear monitors. >Every orchestral playing musician, should not be without them. >Jazz, rock, folk, funk, swing, C&W, R&B, etc… too. >Just make sure the monitor mixer dude, is from the real world. > RICH! Hey man, it’s Jimmy Miller from the old FIDONet Guitar forum! > Nice to see you resurfaced again. Haven’t talked to anyone from that > group in a long time, but I think I see Gary Gilmore post now and then > in some MP3 NG’s. Anyhow, good to see you’re still around, even > though I can’t say I share the same opinion on in-ears 
Talk to > you soon…
What have you been up to!!!!!! Hey, I just popped back in here, and as you can see, I’m still getting under peoples skin. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
Response:
Best Regards, — /" ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H / | http://www.toddh.net/ X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/ / http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice." Oh,…. I see. Compressor question, is the topic. So, I’m still, on topic. What you object to, is my answer, to the question. Not to mention, my STYLE of posting. Hey, what else is new. I never go along with the suits anyway. I’m just, not that kind of guy. BTW, put on a pair of jeans and a T shirt, we’ll get along just fine. > I use in ears.. i hate them… they are not real world and we have a > great monitor mixer. Rich Koerner knows what he is talking > about… he has been doing pro audio and gigging while you were in > diapers…. > My dear anonymous Mr. Mouth, I won’t dispute Rich’s knowledge if both > you or Rich agree that Rich’s advice here in this thread was > inappropriate to the question the OP had.
> To wit, the thread is neither about using compressors for bass guitar > nor the merits/detriments of IEM’s.
Hey, it’s all about the use of technology!!!! And, I have MY opinions on it, and HOW it is used in the production of MUSIC!!!!!!! YOU, may not like my answers. Hey, that’s OK with ME. I’m having a blast, in MY life time. So,….. Where was I,….. <thinking> Get the HIGH TECHNOLOGY out of the MUSIC, and we’ll have REAL music again!!!! Too Many Toys, and the music STILL sounds like the CRAP a bunch of 10 year old kids playing in the cellar make. The only practical use for ear monitors is on the BIG STAGE for singers looking for Or, the drummer on the riser in the high altitude nose bleed zone, without a side fill, needing In ear monitors are also great for monitor mix guys who can’t master the skills of mixing wedges, and love them in ear monitors more than anything. BECAUSE,…. *they* just became MIX Gods, to the band. <thinking> LOL, yeah,… let’s put up a real HOT studio MIX in the band’s in the ear monitors, and let the band THINK they are better than they really are. Add a little of *this* to the voice, a little of *that* to the drums, a little of more Q to the bass, etc… cool. Yep, let them think they really sound that way off stage too. LOL, then when the audience starts throwing chairs at the stage, THAT could be called a, *reality* sound check. <thinking> LIVE music without it sounds like crap!!!!!!! Ya NEED the latest high technology effects pedals!!!!! You NEED to have/use those Super Featured Latest High Tech Ram Charged State of the ART Gear Hooked Up To the Music, To Sell Them CD’s, and PACK Them Clubs With Dancing Bodies!!!!!!! Well then,…… <Rich puts on Jeff Beck’s GUITAR SHOP, in the background> Hey, you’re a musician, loosen up your tie. <to continue, with Guitar Shop still playing in the background> Just step right up, belly up, and put YOUR Money Down on the Latest the TECHNOLOGY Has To Right here, on SALE, we have the latest of hot rod doo-hickies, to make BOTH you, and the BAND sound better. The people will come from miles around ONLY to hear the BANDS with the LATEST Technology UPGRADES!!!!!! Can’t put out a NEW hot CD, without the LATEST Technology on it!!!!! Yeah, WHAT, *will* they say. What *will*, the people *say*, who walked out of the door, looking for another LIVE music club, to finish the night in, honestly say, is the reason they left your club. There are some basic things that aid in making people leave a club. 1. The music is played badly. 2. The music is bad. 3. The music is not interesting. 4. The music is unpleasant to listen to. 5. The music sounds artificial, or not REAL to them. P.S. Loosen up that tie, before you HURT yourself. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
Response:
> > Thoughts? > With good playing technique, who needs a compressor.
This is yet another popular thing to say around here as a kneejerk reflex. This comment placed in this thread especially though, is just plain wrong. The original poster is asking about a compressor’s use in-line for use with an in-ear monitor rig. If you run an in-ear rig that accepts any input that might be prone to feedback or transients such as an unplugged cord, or vocal mikes, it’s "the sane person who cares about protecting his hearing" that needs a compressor. Best Regards, — /" ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H / | http://www.toddh.net/ X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/ / http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."
Response:
> Hi, > In your collective opinion(s) would using multiple compressors be > redundant? > I have a Behringer V-amp as a preamp, and a 2 channel DBX166 which I > currently put in the signal path of my In-Ear system (just as a backup > to the internal limiter), between the mixer and the transmitter. > Would there be any benefit of combining the L and R outputs (with a > Y-connector) of the In-Ear signal into ONE channel of the dbx, to free > up the other channel for the bass?
You don’t want to couple any outputs using Y-connector, ever. This effectively shorts the outputs to two drivers together and causes Goofy Crap ™ to occur. If you seek to only use a mono signal from the V-amp, just use the left output. > I never use the R&L signals in stereo with the In-Ears…so I > conceivably could combine those signals into one channel of the dbx, > and then split them again out of the output of the dbx into the In-Ear > transmitter…again, since I use only a mono signal anyway. > This brings up another question of how this would affect the signal by > combining it, then splitiing it again.
The combining is the problem unless you use a proper mixer/summing amp. A Y connector won’t do it correctly. > The V-amp has a built-in compressor, but I didn’t know if adding a > compressor to the back end of that would be of any benefit (since > the dbx is probably a better compressor)…or maybe just overkill?
Looks at the response time characteristics of both compressors carefully. You want a limiter with very fast response in an in-ear application, so there could very well be a good argument for including the DBX. Best REgards, — /" ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H / | http://www.toddh.net/ X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/ / http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – > Hi, > In your collective opinion(s) would using multiple compressors be > redundant? > I have a Behringer V-amp as a preamp, and a 2 channel DBX166 which I > currently put in the signal path of my In-Ear system (just as a backup > to the internal limiter), between the mixer and the transmitter. > Would there be any benefit of combining the L and R outputs (with a > Y-connector) of the In-Ear signal into ONE channel of the dbx, to free > up the other channel for the bass? > I never use the R&L signals in stereo with the In-Ears…so I > conceivably could combine those signals into one channel of the dbx, > and then split them again out of the output of the dbx into the In-Ear > transmitter…again, since I use only a mono signal anyway. > This brings up another question of how this would affect the signal by > combining it, then splitiing it again. > The V-amp has a built-in compressor, but I didn’t know if adding a > compressor to the back end of that would be of any benefit (since the > dbx is probably a better compressor)…or maybe just overkill? > Thoughts?
With good playing technique, who needs a compressor. Regards, Rich Koerner, Time Electronics. http://www.timeelect.com Specialists in Live Sound FOH Engineering, Music & Studio Production, Vintage Instruments, and Tube Amplifiers
Response:
Hi, In your collective opinion(s) would using multiple compressors be redundant? I have a Behringer V-amp as a preamp, and a 2 channel DBX166 which I currently put in the signal path of my In-Ear system (just as a backup to the internal limiter), between the mixer and the transmitter. Would there be any benefit of combining the L and R outputs (with a Y-connector) of the In-Ear signal into ONE channel of the dbx, to free up the other channel for the bass? I never use the R&L signals in stereo with the In-Ears…so I conceivably could combine those signals into one channel of the dbx, and then split them again out of the output of the dbx into the In-Ear transmitter…again, since I use only a mono signal anyway. This brings up another question of how this would affect the signal by combining it, then splitiing it again. The V-amp has a built-in compressor, but I didn’t know if adding a compressor to the back end of that would be of any benefit (since the dbx is probably a better compressor)…or maybe just overkill? Thoughts?
Response:
>Fine with me, if you want to sample the real world through ear monitors. >Every orchestral playing musician, should not be without them. >Jazz, rock, folk, funk, swing, C&W, R&B, etc… too. >Just make sure the monitor mixer dude, is from the real world.
RICH! Hey man, it’s Jimmy Miller from the old FIDONet Guitar forum! Nice to see you resurfaced again. Haven’t talked to anyone from that group in a long time, but I think I see Gary Gilmore post now and then in some MP3 NG’s. Anyhow, good to see you’re still around, even though I can’t say I share the same opinion on in-ears Talk to you soon…
Response:
> I use in ears.. i hate them… they are not real world and we have a great > monitor mixer.
What do you not like about them? What do you use; which drivers? How long have you used them CONSISTENTLY? Do you sing or just play bass? What do you have running through them, full band, and in stereo? Any ambience mics? What exactly do you mean by "real world?" Do you mean that they do not provide an accurate depiction of what is going on around you? I am still getting used to mine but am starting to grow fond of them. They’re great for using tracks with a click — the audience doesn’t hear it.
Response:
> I use in ears.. i hate them… they are not real world and we have a > great monitor mixer. Rich Koerner knows what he is talking > about… he has been doing pro audio and gigging while you were in > diapers….
My dear anonymous Mr. Mouth, I won’t dispute Rich’s knowledge if both you or Rich agree that Rich’s advice here in this thread was inappropriate to the question the OP had. To wit, the thread is neither about using compressors for bass guitar nor the merits/detriments of IEM’s. Best Regards, — /" ASCII Ribbon Campaign | Todd H / | http://www.toddh.net/ X Promoting good netiquette | http://triplethreatband.com/ / http://www.toddh.net/netiquette/ | "4 lines suffice."
Response:
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